TBI SWAP TO NON-INJECTION VEHICLES ALL BORROWD FROM DIFF. SITES LOT OF EDIT GOING ON.

Discussion in 'General Truck Forum' started by chevychase, Feb 27, 2014.

  1. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    Description
    This is a 91 350 TBI setup. Includes: intake & throttle body, fuel lines, distributor, coil, ignition wires, air cleaner, ecm, charcoal can, fuel lines & some misc. hoses + brackets, mounting bolts & wiring harness from auto trans

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    First thing to do is lay it all out and inventory what you got.


    If you look close you will see that for a basic system I am missing 2 parts.
    1. The CTS.
    2. The O2 sensor.


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    Connect all the parts onto the wiring harness. Most connectors are idiot proof and can only go 1 place..but there are exceptions so if your not sure, no problem, we will get to it soon!

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    This is the ECM with the system.


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    So what do we do first?

    Well we need to get rid of all that old covering and tape so we can trace the wires.
    A simple razor blade works fine, just don't cut into the wires!

    15 min later...

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    and this is what was removed so far.

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    Now what do we want to do about this big thing????
    Well there are a couple of options.
    1. Leave it as is. If you pulled the system yourself then you could have saved the retaining clip. Then just cut a big hole in the firewall and stick it in.

    2. Cut it out. You will eventually tailor the harness down to fit your IH anyway so just cut the whole harness in half and remove the plug out of it!!

    3. Remove the plug from the wires....
    There are a couple ways to do this.
    a. use heat(hot water/heat gun) to soften the outer case of the plug. Then pry the case off the outside. There are a couple little locks sticking thru one side that will need to be squeezed with some needle nose. Then you can use the needle nose to start pulling the goo off of the wires. tedious work.

    b. remove the outside case then use your heat gun to melt the goo off the wires. Hold it over a box or lined trashcan to catch all the drippings!!

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    So now we need to determine which wires stay and which wires go!!!


    pinouts for ecm scroll down in the thread www.truckforum.org/forums/chevy-truck-forum/36278-electrical-diagrams-chevy-only-3.html

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    Wiring Basics:
    1. Most manufactures follow a basic wire color system. There will always be exceptions to the rule and a color may be used twice. There are also small difference from model/yr.
    But some colors to note are....
    pink/blk-this is 12v that is from a switched source.
    red- 12v straight from the battery
    org- 12v after it goes thru a fuse or protection device.
    blk/wht- ground

    2. Tie points shown on the diagrams will not be the physical location of the actual connection. A tie point can be any where along the same piece of wire and it will perform exactly the same!


    Lets start from the top....
    First connector will be the small one that has an A side and a B side.
    Note the "A" and the numbers from 1-12 from right to left!

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    And here is the larger C and D connector.

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    Make sure you comb the wires out straight coming out of the connector so there are no mistaking which wire you are looking at.

    NOTE: You will not be using every wire that is in the plug.
    Because we are dealing with so many systems, make sure you use the wire listing and diagrams for your system. Some wire colors used will be different between different years. Just make sure that the designated pin goes to the listed location!


    Now starting with A1 we see it is Green with a white stripe and should go to the fuel pump relay. Follow the wire all the way to the end.

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    Use your pen and masking tape and make a wire label!!! You may also want to put the name of the part it is hooked to. If the wire goes into a tie point with other wires I put a label there and at the end where it's going.

    Did you notice this system came with 2 bosch style relays instead of the older fuel pump relay!! Guess I won't need to buy a seperate power relay!!!

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    Continue this thru the list.

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  2. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    A & B. C & D. pinouts www.truckforum.org/forums/chevy-truck-forum/36278-electrical-diagrams-chevy-only-3.html
    There are also numbers on the plug for each pin.
    Some basics:
    run 2 relays. 1 for 12v to the ignition, ECM power and injectors, and 1 for the fuel pump. I use the basic 30 amp aux lighting relays from the parts store. If the harness came with the factory fuel pump relay than I retain that relay. If not I use the 2nd 30 amp relay for the fuel pump. Both relays are energized from the 12v ignition wire that used to go to the + side of the coil. Since it is only used to turn the relays on there is less draw on the stock 30 year old scout wiring.
    I don't run the ign from the switch. Due to voltage drop from the old IH wiring. I run all switched(from the key "on" position) 12vdc thru the relay.

    If you use a bosch style relay here are the pins:
    There are several different versions of the relay out there so look at the pin numbers before you buy one.

    30-12v fused input(should also hook up your org ECM constant 12v to this wire)
    85- Gnd
    86- 12vdc from ign sw(black wire that was hooked up to the coil +)
    87- pink/blk, pink(ignition, ecm power)
    87- red, white(injectors)

    there are 2- 87 output terminals on the SPST 5 terminal relay so you can use both.

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    Using factory fuel pump relays....

    www.truckforum.org/forums/chevy-truck-forum/36278-electrical-diagrams-chevy-only-3.html



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    Note:
    Pin A comes from the ECM pin A1 and is used to apply 12V to the relay to turn it on.

    Pin C is the ground wire. Can be connected to one of the black/wht wires.

    Pin D is your 12V from a fuse. This is normally tied to the org wires B1 and C16. It is the same that provides the bat 12V to the ECM.

    Pin B is the output of the relay going to the Fuel Pump or any other load you have connected to it.
    This also ties to pin B2 of the ECM to tell it when the FP is actually running.


    Now the pin letters may not be exactly the same as this diagram. That's not important. It you follow the diagram here and the description and just match it up to the diagram on your relay!!!
    Here is a modified diagram (sheet 2 attached at bottom of post) showing one of the alternate pin designations on the relay and also shows the removal of the oil pressure switch.

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    Quote:
    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: alt2"] So to start out we will go right down the line in order.

    A1- grn/wht- this wire is used to energize the fuel pump relay.
    A2- not used
    A3- not used
    A4- gry- to EGR relay.(optional) This is a ground from the ECM to control the EGR relay.
    A5- brn/wht- SES(service eng soon) light. This is a ground to turn on the light.
    A6- pnk/blk- switched 12v from the ignition relay.
    A7- not used
    A8- orn- ALDL Serial data. This is your ALDL pin E data for your lap top.
    A9- wht/blk- ALDL pin B diag mode. When jumpered to ground will set the ECM to ALDL diagnostic mode.
    A10- brn- VSS speed sensor signal to the ECM (optional)
    A11- ppl or blk- MAP sensor ground.
    A12- blk/wht- System ground. Can be tied with D1. Goes to engine ground.

    Just to clear the confusion on which pins are grounds I have taken a C3 ECM apart and labeled the pin locations on the plugs.
    If you look you can see that D1 and D2 are solder connected and A11 and A12 are also connected.
    So if either one of the two, example: D1 and A11 are grounded the other one will be. D2 and A12.

    SEE PIC BELOW


    B1- orn- 12v fused from battery. I use an inline fuse on this. It also ties into C16.
    B2- tan/wht- Fuel pump signal from the relay. This one ties into several places, the fuel pump, the relay, and the ecm. When the relay is on it sends 12v thru this wire to turn on the fuel pump, at the same time it tells the ECM the fuel pump is on.
    B3- blk/red- EST reference.
    B4- not used
    B5- ppl/wht- EST high reference
    B6- not used
    B7- blk- ESC signal This is the knock sensor signal to the ECM. The knock sensor circuit is optional. If not used, tie this wire to C14 the 5v reference. This will fool the system sometimes but you will need to program the chip to prevent the SES light from coming on.
    B8- dk grn- AC signal. This tells the ECM that the AC is turned on. This can be used to set the idle speed higher when you turn the AC on. I use it to increase the idle when using the compressor for on board air. Same thing!! Just tie it to the wire going to the AC clutch.
    B9- not used
    B10-orn/blk- Park/Neutral sw. This is optional but I have hooked it into the park sw on the tranny. It tells the ECM when you are in Pk or N. It can be used to give a slight adjustment to idle speed when switching from park to drive and back.
    B11- not used
    B12- not used

    C1- not used
    C2- not used
    C3- IAC- gn/blk to IAC D / 2.5l flat plug A
    C4- IAC- gn/wht to IAC C / 2.5l flat plug B
    C5- IAC- bl/wht to IAC A / 454 flat plug B / 2.5l flat plug D
    C6- IAC- bl/blk to IAC B / 454 flat plug A / 2.5l flat plug C
    The ECM controls the IAC motor. It adjust the amount of air that is bypassed around the butterflies to adjust the idle speed.
    Note: For the IAC pins C5 to A and C6 to B are reversed on the 454 vs the SBC so swap those 2 pins if using a 454 TB with the bolt on IAC. To connect the 1BBL 2.5L IAC, all 4 wires are different. See above.

    C7- not used
    C8- not used
    C9- ppl/wht- Starter crank signal. Goes to the small terminal of the starter. The stock scout wire is white that goes there. Tells the ECM you are trying to start the engine.
    C10- yel- Temp sender signal
    C11- lt grn- Map sensor signal
    C12- (1228746 only) IAT/MAT sensor
    C13- dk blu- TPS sensor signal
    C14- gry- 5v reference signal to map and TPS.
    C15- grn- inj B ground signal. Most systems do not use this. It was used on some of the bigger engines to share the load of the injector signal.
    C16- orn- fused 12v tied to B1

    D1- blk/wht- System ground, ties to A12 and engine.
    D2- blk- Sensor ground. To eng block or head.
    D3- not used
    D4- wht- EST control
    D5- tan/blk- EST bypass. This is the wire that has a plug near the distr that you disconnect to set your timing.
    D6- Tan- O2 ground to engine.
    D7- ppl- O2 sensor signal
    D8- D13 not used
    D14- lt grn- Injector B ground signal
    D15- blu- optional injector A ground signal
    D16- blu- Injector A ground signal

    And that's it.
    If you sit down on your garage floor and have each sensor plugged into the harness, then trace each wire back to the ECM connector, you will be able to separate a lot of uneeded wires.
    Once you have each wire identified and layed out, then you can set it up on the engine and start tailoring it to fit your engine.
    Placement of the sensors will determine wire length. Most stock harnesses are plenty long and only need to be shortened or wrapped and bundled.
    When done and it's running then I go back and reinstall the plastic loom over all the harness.
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    Some additional info.Painless wiring install guide

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  3. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    OK you should have gotten thru all the wires that are needed and have them all labeled.

    Now what about the ones that aren't needed?

    cut the wire 4-6" from the ECM and leave it there....just in case.

    You will need to decide which of the "optional" sensors you want to retain.

    Items like the EGR and purge canister wires will have a control wire from the ECM and a ground(blk/wht) or 12v wire. (pink/blk)
    So after you cut and remove the wire attached to the ECM you will have to go back to each unused connector and cut the other wire. These usually cut near the unused plug so you can use the remaining wire if needed!!
    I'll show you a couple examples as we go along......

    (There may not be a wire in each terminal listed)
    Cut:
    A2, A3, A4 cut if not using EGR, A7, B4, B6, B7 cut if not using the knock sensor, B9, B11, B12.

    C1, C2, C7, C8, D3, D8-D13.

    Here is the tie point for B2(fuel pump) Note the small wire going to the ECM connector is tied to the larger wire coming from the relay. It also splits to a 3rd wire that actually goes to the fuel pump to turn it on.

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    These are the wires run to the ALDL.
    There is the serial data-A8, the Diag term-A9, Gnd-blk/wht, and 12v sw-pnk/blk.

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    12V tie point.
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    Misc signals
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    The main system grounds
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    The 12V switched left over wires. These come in handy later!!!
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    Here is the 2 relay and the main power input fuse. Note the red lead going to the fuse holder. Then coming out it is org. This will be used to power the system.
    The relay on the right was used to power the AC system. Since you maybe be using the AC signal wire(B8) to up your RPM for the OBW and OBA, you will use this relay for my main power relay!!!

    The relay on the left is the fuel pump relay and is controlled by the ECM.

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    The rest of the harness
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    And here's what was removed.

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    Including the oil pressure switch connector.
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    Don't throw these away!!!

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  4. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    OK about all we have left is to get our system some power! We need to feed a relay with 12V, then that 12V need to go to the rest of the system.

    So we need a relay to power it all. I prefer a relay instead of trying to use the old scout wiring to power everything. Think of it as a "bright lights" kit for your motor!!!

    Like I said before, I have 2 relays with this system. One is the fuel pump and the second was for the AC system.
    When checked the relay found a couple of problems with it.May not have this problem according to what vehicle tbi swap is on.
    1. The wires are too small for the whole system.
    2. This relay is only wired for the 87a terminal. This means the contact is only powered when the relay is off! When power is applied the relay energizes and open pin 87a....

    Well that won't work for what I want to do.
    So I have to rewire this relay!
    It would have been easier to just use a new one but.... I can't find my spare. Somebody must have used it on another project!
    Here is what it came in. Used to get them from Autozone for a few bucks.

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    Here is the GM bosch

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    need to remove a couple of the original terminals so you can replace them with larger wires.
    A simple jewlers screwdriver and a pair of needle nose... and they are out.

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    Then poke a new hole in the seal to slip the wire thru.

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    Put the wire up thru the bottom and crimped a standard female spade on the wire!
    Just to refresh your memory...87 is the output. 30 is the power in. 85 and 86 are the ground and the control wire to turn the relay on.
    So we needed a larger wire in 87 and 30!!
    This is the wire for 87

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    This is the wire that will be used for 30. It was the org wire that used to go to the oil pressure switch.

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    Not a good pic of the relay but you can see my notes!

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    Here is the new terminals installed.

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    Now what do we need to power with this new relay?
    Well we need 12V to the coil.

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    We need 12V to the injectors. Remember that the 12V is always there with the key on and the ECM applys the ground to the inj to turn it on!

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    And how about the ECM!! Remember the pink with blk is supposed to be 12V when you turn the key switch on. Well this is how it gets it!
    This was one of the wires that was removed from the connectors we cut off like the EGR...
    You need to run the wires along the harness and up to the relay.

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    So we have 4 wires and only 1 terminal to connect them to. So we need to splice some wires together. This one way to do it.
    Strip about 1/2" of insulation from around the main wire. I used the larger pink ignition wire as the main wire.

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    Then tin the wire by using a little flux and solder.

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    Then tin the smaller wire and then solder together.

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    Then we use heat shrink tubing over the connection to protect it! You can get these things at any wallmart or radio shack.
    Do the remaining wires along the main wire. We don't put them all in the same place.

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    And here is where we are at. We have power to our system, trimmed the grounds to the same length and put a new terminal on them. There are 4 gnds, 2 tan and 2 blk/wht on this harness. These go to a good engine ground point like a bolt on the back of the head!!..or intake.

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  5. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    Took a few more pics to help you see where the wires go!!!

    A1-from the ecm to terminal 86 of the bosch fuel pump relay to energize the relay.

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    A4-egr optional
    A5- Service engine soon (SES) light. This applies the ground to one side of the light. Use one of the leftover 12V pink/blk wires to provide the 12V to the other side of the light.

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    A6-12V switched, goes to the tie point of all the pink/blk 12v wires. Then up to the large pink ign wire that goes to the power relay terminal 87.

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    A8, A9 go to the ALDL connector (if you have 1). A8 to pin E, A9 to pin B, and a ground to pin A.

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    A10, B10, C9 will get hooked up to your (if applicable) A10 for the vehicle speed sensor B10 park neutral switch C9 crank signal

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    A11 ground goes to the tie point then out to most of the sensors for their ground. It ties to A12 inside the ECM then to ground...at intake..or engine.

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    A12, D1, D2, D6 ground to the tie point then to the main ground lug to the engine.

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    B1, C16 battery power to the tie point then up to the fuse.

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    B2 fuel pump relay terminal 87 on a bosch relay. Goes to a tie point. one wire to the fuel pump and the other to the relay.

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    B3, B5, D4, D5 to the EST connector.

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    B7 to the ESC if using a knock sensor.

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    B8 ties to the wire that energizes the AC compressor clutch so the ECM knows when it's on. Can also be tied to the OBA or OBW or to a switch for guys with a manual transmission so they can raise the idle while rock crawling to be able to use 1 foot on the brake and 1 on the clutch...no hand throttle needed!!

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  6. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    C3, C4, C5, C6 go to the IAC on the TB.

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    C10 to the temp sender.

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    C11, C14 to the MAP sensor.

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    C13, C14 to the TPS on the TB.

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    D7 to the O2 sensor.

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    D14, D16 to the injectors to provide the ground to turn them on.

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    And now the harness is about done till we lay itout in the vehicle !!

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  7. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    TO TEST THE SETUP BEFORE INSTALLING IFIN YOU WANT TOO??

    With the system layed out on the floor and everything still connected I grabbed my spare battery and my laptop.

    I connected the red 12V wire and my green 12 Switched (relay) wire that will hook up to the the wire that went from the key to the original coil to the pos cable.

    I ran a couple of ground wires to connect the distr and the coil to ground..remember the EST is mounted to the distr and it gets it's ground by being attatched to the motor.
    Then I connected those grounds and the harness grounds to the neg cable.

    I put a screwdriver in the end of the coil wire and set a ground wire from the battery about 1 1/2" away from the screwdriver....

    Then I connected my laptop with my homemade ALDL cable to the A8 serial data wire and the ground.

    Here's the system layed out...

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    Here's the actual connections. As soon as you hook up the relay power you will hear them click. If all is good, you should also see a blinking green 20 on the winaldl screen.

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    Here is the ALDL connections. Note only 2 wires are needed and I just use spade connectors for now. No ALDL plug with the system!!

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    Now do you want to see what happens when you turn the shaft of the distributor???







    ZAP!!!!

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    Now that's a spark. Any doubt about the power of the newer Epoxy core coils?????
    They will light you up!!!

    Quote:
    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: alt2"] But how do we know the rest of the system is working??? [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    Well I'm glad you asked!

    With the laptop hooked up I logged some data. Just the sensors.
    Then I excersized each one and watched the numbers on the screen change.
    I moved the throttle for the TPS.
    I plugged a resistor into the CTS-temp sender wires to simulate a chage in temp(you could just unplug the sensor)
    I applied vacuum to the map sensor hose and watched the numbers go down.
    (how did I do that?..you will figure it out!)

    I also used the resistor the MAT/IAT that the 6965 ECM uses.

    When done I disconnected power then I plugged my 1227747 into the same wiring harness and retested everything!!

    I'll attach the log files for you guys to look at in MS Excel format!

    Now if you really wanted to go all the way!!!
    Hook up your fuel pump to a can of fuel (outside).
    Put the TB over a bucket.
    Run the return back to the can.

    Then when you first connect the relay power the pump should run for about 2 seconds then turn off.
    Then when you turn the distr and produce a spark, the pump will come on and the injectors will shoot fuel!
    Hook your drill to the distr and really have fun!!!

    Now your entire system will be operational and checked prior to installing.
    In open loop that is!!
    Do you really want to put a torch to the new O2 sensor to get it up to 600* to see if the closed loop flag comes on???

    I didn't think so!!
     
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  8. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    Next journey

    Let's install some parts!!!
    How many people would remove a complete working FI harness just to install another one to take pictures and prove it will work????

    Guess just the dumb ones!!!!

    If you are not using the EGR then you can either buy or make a blank off plate. Here is mine just made out of a piece of aluminum.

    [​IMG]

    Here the TB is mounted on my homemade adapter plate...can buy also I used 1/2" aluminum to allow me to taper the holes towards the manifold.
    I also did this with the engine apart so I used a hole saw on the manifold to match the holes up between the TB and the manifold.

    I used the factory GM fuel lines. For this one I found the SS braided lines. They are about 4' long so they reach the frame rail on the passengers side.

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    The throttle linkage is pretty straight forward. Very little mod needed.
    You can see I moved the bracket back 1 hole and raised it up using a large Nut for a spacer..not bling but it works. I'll have to CNC some aluminum or something later!! [​IMG]

    The throttle arms may be a little different between models. Keep in mind that the closer to the shaft you mount the stud or ball link the less travel the pedal has to make.

    With it on the top like this one. I have to use all the pedal movement I can get to reach full throttle.
    I'm using the stock stud on this one and it works but you may have to grind a little bit off the cables retaining clip to allow the cable to clip onto the stud.

    A better option is to pull the ball out of the original Carb and use it on the TB. You will have to grind the back side of the TB stud to remove it. Then just put the ball in the hole and tighten the nut!!

    I have done it both ways!!
    You will have to readjust the kick down when done.

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    If you use a knock sensor, this is as close to the GM location as you can get.
    It screws right into the block drain plug hole.

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    For the O2 sensor, I mount it on the drivers side in the down pipe. It should be mounted parallel or up right. You don't want it with the wire pointing down. That will let carbon and moisture accumulate in the sensor and kill it.

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    Water temp sender. I found the best place is in the Thermostat housing if you have the plug there. If not...an alternate location is on the back side of the intake manifold where the thermal vacuum switch is screwed in.

    The sender is a 3/8npt. IIRC the housing is a 1/2npt so you will need the reducer bushing.

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    Coil
    I just screwed it on where the original was.

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    Map sensor
    Turns out the relay bracket has already designed to hold the Map sensor!!
    So I mounted it on the bracket with the ESC and the fuel pump and power relays!!

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    Relays, ESC, MAP

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  9. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    Fuel pump and lines

    I mounted the pump right on top of the frame inside the body mount to keep it protected.
    I use the Fram G3 filter before the pump. Also note I add a piece of of foam to insulate the noise between the pump and the frame!!! If you don't...you will know when it's running!!!

    I ran a new 3/8" fuel line for the feed and used the original 5/16 plastic line for the return line to the tank. The fuel line material you use is up to you.
    I just follow the same path as the original line and zip tie it to it.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    For the return you can run it to the tank itself. Later tanks have the vapor recovery fittings on the top front corners...

    Or you can run it to a T in the tank fill vent line.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. chevychase

    chevychase Semi-Admin
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    #10 chevychase, Feb 27, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
    So now to the wiring!!!

    First we need to be able to get the wiring into the scout.
    There are several ways and none of them are real appealing!!
    You have to put another hole in your vehicle.

    Here's where I put mine. It lines up with the glove box where I put the ECM!!

    [​IMG]

    Here is the grommet I use to make it pretty. It came from a caprice wiring harness.

    [​IMG]

    So now the hard part...
    You throw the harness on top of the motor and start figuring out the best way to run the wires to each sensor.

    Grounds...
    I bolt these right to the back of the cylinder head in one of the empty holes.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Map plugs right in...

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    If you have an automatic then the park/N wire B10 goes to this little connector. I could not find the wire number for it. It has 2 wires coming from the firewall and then 1 terminal has 2 wires out and the other has 1 wire out going to the tranny sw. The single wire is the one you want. You can verify it by using an ohm meter from the wire to ground. In pk and N it will be 0 in anything else it will be open!!

    [​IMG]

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    Remember the green/wht wire that turns on the relay....
    well hook it up to the wire that used to go to the + side of the coil!

    [​IMG]
     
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